193 Comments

Why you are voting to keep NZ’s flag – And why I think you’re wrong

It is apparent from both forms of media – social and “traditional” that I’m on the losing side of the “change the flag” debate. Even the majority of my centre right associates, with whom I often – if not regularly – agree, seem to want to stay with the status quo.

The more astute of you will have noticed that I am still classifying social and “traditional” media as two distinct and mutually exclusive arms of the media (sarcasm/quotation marks intended).

I haven’t quite hit forty yet but I am confident in saying that back in my day the front pages of “traditional” media did not begin with “How the Twitterverse reacted to…” or “Have your say on…”.  They had the decency to keep celebrities in the celebrity gossip section and keep the news section for news. They stated facts… researched facts that allowed the reader to make up their own minds.

Oh, how I long for the good old days.

In an attempt to have my say on the Great New Zealand Flag Debate, I spent an hour or so in front of Twitter trying to come up with something witty and poignant in 140 characters or less before reverting to that most ancient form of healthy and open debate– blogging.

I don’t have all the rebuttals to all the arguments for keeping our flag but I am reading and listening to what you are saying and I can’t say I agree…

YOU SAY
$26 million dollars could be spent elsewhere

I SAY
Don’t tell me – it could have gone into education, hospitals, feeding the poor etc.

Fair call that – pat yourself on the back comrade.

Here’s the weird thing. I know people that will be voting to keep the current flag partially because they object to the cost of the referendum.

Many (dare I say most) of them are the same people that thought nothing of spending $9 million on a non-binding referendum to try and halt the sale of assets in 2013. This was a policy that the government ran on openly during the election and was therefore mandated to follow through with.

That needs repeating – $9 million on a referendum that the government acknowledged was going to be ignored!

Even good governance will upset everyone at some stage of a term. I personally would rather the $36 million “invested” in the Americas Cup in 2013 was put into more important things… like subsidising quality single malt whisky imports, but I was big enough to overlook this.

And anyway – just how much is $26 million?

The total Crown expenditure for year ending June 2015 was $94,272 million ($94.3 billion for those who prefer their accounting in hyperbole).

This (either way you want to read it) is an exceptionally large amount of money.

So – let’s assume the flag referendum funds were spent in the year to June 2015… The $26 million would represent….

  • 0.03% of total Crown expenditure
  • 0.11% of Crown expenditure on social security & welfare
  • 0.17% of Crown expenditure on health
  • 0.20% of Crown expenditure on education

These are an exceptionally small percentage figures and I struggled to get my head around how small 0.03% is – almost as much as I grappled to understand exactly how big $94 billion is.

I refer below to what appears to be the media industry standard for making financial data easier to understand to Joe Stupid (or the public as we non-media like to refer to them).  The block of cheese comparison. I apologise in advance that despite much researching (Googling) I was unable to get my head around the preferred double decker bus / Olympic swimming pool/ Empire State Building methods.

  • If the equivalent percentage of the cost of the referendum was taken out of the average New Zealand median income it would equate to $13.50.
  • $13.50 is as close-as-makes-no-difference the price of a block of cheese. You may recall the Crown (actually – the Opposition) promoting a tax reduction the equivalent to a block of cheese not all that long ago, so effectively the referendum is free!

Here’s the thing… Like it or not, the money has been spent. I promise you that governments in the future will upset you with their spending priorities. Don’t let cost alone cloud your judgement.

YOU SAY
The alternative flag looks like a corporate logo.

I SAY
Yeah… probably not the ideal statement for me to counter because I’m with you on this. Only I reckon it’s a good thing…

What is a national flag, if not a logo for a country? Corporations spend millions of dollars getting just the right logo for their brand… and now we have too.

I must admit I’m not even on the same page as the man who designed the proposed new flag.

“I feel like the fern with its multiple points represents multiple cultures coming together and growing upward into the future.” – Kyle Lockwood

FlagLet’s look at this for what it is… the silver fern. Wait… I’ll capitalise it… The Silver Fern. Yep – that’s better.

One of my earliest memories, almost certainly my first moment of patriotism (albeit I couldn’t possibly have known what patriotism meant at the tender age of 3), was seeing John Walker running in the black singlet… with The Silver Fern.

The All Blacks are almost too obvious to bring up here but what “they” say is true. Many foreigners can’t find our country on a map of the world, but they know who the All Blacks are… and they recognise The Silver Fern.

It’s not just sport either. The graves of our fallen soldiers at Gallipoli are marked by The Silver Fern– the symbol of New Zealand’s contribution and sacrifice to the world.

Furthermore, with the proposed design we keep the stars of the Southern Cross and the blue background in what I perceive as a nod to the current flag and a shout out to our neighbours in Australia and the South Pacific.

For mine, Lockwood has nailed the design – just not his interpretation of it!

Here’s the thing… It might not be the design you wanted, it might not mean the same things to you as it does to me and that’s OK. You’d have to make a pretty solid argument that this design is not better branding for “New Zealand Inc.” than the current flag.

YOU SAY
My (insert relative here) fought/died (delete one) for that flag

I SAY
Did they?

I’d argue that they didn’t fight “for the flag”. I’d argue that they fought for their country – maybe even for Queen and Country – certainly for the people of their country, but not for the design that symbolised their country at that time.

Would these brave souls not have fought equally as hard prior to 1902 when the current flag was introduced? Will our soldiers of the future be less likely to lay down their lives under a new flag?

And let’s just say I’ve missed the mark here. Let’s say it was specifically the Union Jack part of the flag that the heroes at Gallipoli were fighting for.

Let’s time-travel back to a few hours after the tragic British error that resulted in the misguided landing of our boys at the wrong beach on the Canakkale Peninsula, leaving them exposed to fire and with a monumental unexpected climb in front of them.

Then, come with me as we go a few days forward to the scene of the Kiwis digging in while the British forces held back, well behind the front-line.

Several years ago I was fortunate enough to be able to make the pilgrimage to Gallipoli and enjoyed a tour with a Turkish guide.

“We don’t see many British tourists here”, he conceded…

“Probably too embarrassed”

I know we’d like to look back in black in white as, in the finest Queen’s English, our narrator carries on about the brave Antipodeans… but I’ll bet you this wasn’t the scene on the ground.

I bet you “Those fucking Poms” was an all too familiar phrase.

If your case for keeping the current design is still that our boys died for that flag, I would counter that many of our boys died because of that flag.

Here’s the thing… Our armed services do what they do for a number of reasons. To suggest that duty specifically to the flag is on anywhere near the same level as duty to their country and it’s people is, in my opinion, doing them a great disservice.

YOU SAY
This is just a legacy project for John Key

I SAY
Yeah? And? So? What?

It’s ever so popular to bag the current leader of any country but, in doing so, there must be a level of acknowledgement that John Key and the party he leads have received enough votes to ensure he has been the Prime Minister of New Zealand for three consecutive terms. Our electoral system, whilst flawed, generally results an accurate reflection of the political leanings of the New Zealand public at election time.

I’m not a Labour voter but if Helen Clark had, justifiably, been looking for a legacy as a reminder of her time in charge of New Zealand, I’d still be voting for a change of flag.

Here’s the thing… I’m not fussed which side of the floor came up with this, nor do I care for their own personal reasons for doing so. I’m just happy to have my chance to have my say for my reasons.

YOU SAY
It’s a foregone conclusion. The flag will not change.

I SAY
I write this in the (possibly naive) hope that there is a silent majority out there that, until now have not given their voices to the debate. In most referendums the “time for a change” camps make all the noise while the silent majority await their inevitable victory, this one seems quite the opposite.

Here’s the thing… At the end of the day I’ll be casting my vote on the flag that I feel best represents the New Zealand that I know and love. I couldn’t care less about who decided to hold the referendum, how much it cost or who decided which options flew high and which were left at half-mast (sorry…)

I have been given the opportunity to vote for one flag over another. It’s a process I’m privileged to be involved with.

With the mess some parts of the world are in currently there is no better time to be a New Zealander. It’s a complicated world going through complicated times which is why I reckon it’s bloody magnificent to see that a flag change referendum is getting everyone as emotive and fired up as they are.

It just goes to show that we really don’t know how lucky we are.

 

193 comments on “Why you are voting to keep NZ’s flag – And why I think you’re wrong

  1. one of the best articals i have read on the subject,i agree with everything you have written,only your choise differs from mine

  2. Thanks. That’s why we all get to have a say!

  3. I couldn’t agree more. I am embarrassed at how most New Zealanders have reacted to this rare opportunity. It seems most are hung up on the fact that ‘the process was flawed’. At what point did we all become a nation of council planners?

    Some people don’t want to be helped I guess. It’s just a shame they get a vote on this, and given a chance for their stubbornness to hold the country back.

  4. Well said, sadly most Kiwi’s don’t understand maths and suffer from Tall Poppy syndrome, so anything representing progress advanced by a deservedly wealthy politician will be seen as not being welfare focussed. Some of the many reasons I left NZ 15 years ago and never looked back

    • Changing the flag would be change and not progress. It neither opens doors nor closes them.

      If you’ve left the country and not looked back why are you even reading blog posts like this one?

  5. Absolutely on the money- great article. Ought to go viral in NZ

  6. This is a piss-take, (& not a very good one)

  7. I second that Mac O’Brien, pissing into the wind, there is more to ‘Our Current Flag’ 1902 than this rubbish, this is about our heritage, history, our spirit world honouring all those Veterans who took the ‘Ultimate Sacrifice’ of the many years of conflict to protect our country their loved one, our freedom, democracy ( which is more than we can say about this John Key & his National party have honoured let alone ‘Consultation’) the most of all the future of our ‘Children “Humanity” and finally our ‘Treaty of Waitangi’ which is not just for Maori but all New Zealand people. 1835 was our Declaration of Independence and is our ‘Protection’ under our Flag the Union Jack Queen Victoria. The ‘Fern’ represents “Death” the end cycle, that’s why it’s on the tomb stone of the Kiwi soldiers overseas. This ‘Alternate Flag, the ‘Fern’ is ‘White’ representing ‘Cowardice’. Amen

  8. Its fuggly and the design process was ridiculous. We’re changing something really important and don’t have a single designer on the committee or proper youth representation. No a youth councillor from Invercargill doesn’t count. Company brands go through a way more rigorous process to change their logos. This will be round for a long time to come and it shouldn’t be rushed. Hey if you like it, vote for it but I’m going to stay with the status quo till we have a decent occasion, like say becoming a republic and then only if we follow proper vexillology principles.

  9. Your argument essentially boils down to:

    “1. Who cares about wasted money if it’s only a fraction of the total money spent?
    2. Selling our country using logos is better than respecting our history
    3. People who died in the name of freedom and ending war don’t count
    4. Yes this flag change is entirely about John Key’s ego, and I don’t care
    5. I don’t care that most people don’t want the change, you’re all ignorant and take this referendum for granted. ”

    Well buddy, I care about wasted money. Every 0.0003% wasted is still wasted, and it adds up. $26 million here, a hundred million there, and that 0.0003% starts to look more like 3.3%. Wasted money is more of an issue than a flag change. And we don’t need a ‘logo’ to sell our country. A flag change won’t boost our tourism revenue. At the end of the day, this is nothing but a joke that John Key is trying to shove down everyone elses throats for no other reason than to ‘make his mark’ on New Zealand history. Trying to invent other reasons for the change solely by decrying the reasons against the change is extremely telling as to the importance, or lack thereof, of this stupid, costly, and pointless ego-driven mess

  10. It’s obvious you are just another spin doctor who has spent a lot of your time coming up with all of this. I could also spend time coming up with why we should keep the flag. $26m was a huge waste because Key knew through the polls that the majority were against it. Pure waste.

  11. Well thank you for your well written blog I have now jumped from the present flag to the Silver Fern showing above. This article bought clarity to the table, so thank you for that.

    • It’s not “silver” and it’s not a fern – it’s more like a feather. do you really want to be waving a white feather as our National flag? Great for the Armed Forces – NOT.

      • Strangest looking feather I’ve seen. Try telling your local All Black they are wearing a ‘white feather’. Utter bollocks and an absolute insult to those who lie beneath it.

  12. Well said

  13. You say: It isn’t a recognizable flag and people from overseas don’t know who we are.

    I say: Can you accurately identify the flags of most of Africa? Probably not. A flag doesn’t mean much at all in the big world. We know who we are, we already know what our flag looks like. So it is similar to the Aussie flag. So what? Why must we have to single ourselves out so readily and be centre of attention/ Is it our small nation complex?

    You say: The government spends so much money elsewhere what’s another 26 million.

    I say: Come on mate, that is a facile argument. The current team in power have a careless agenda of throwing money away by the bucket load and soon it will catch up with all of us. Mind the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves could not be a more apt warning for this leadership.

    You say: We have to make it better for the kiwi brand “New Zealand Inc”

    I say: The New Zealand tourism industry has never been stronger; most likely due to our economic ties with Asia and media exposure due to the Allblacks and our film industry success among others. Immigration has never been higher; likely due to our relaxed lifestyle, low population density, standard of living and most of the rest of the world being a ‘shit hole’ at the moment.

    Sure it’s a complicated world going through complicated times but when has it ever not been. The simple fact is that this country does’t need a flag change and our efforts and attention could be spent better elsewhere. I’m not overly bothered if it changes or not and I dare say most people will be glad when it is all over. Let’s concentrate on improving this great country by other means than a piece of fabric flapping on a metal pole.

  14. How many families have to scrimp to buy food, your small amount of money could be a life saver for some. Of course they fought for a flag and country many flags and many countries where would we be today under a German or Japanese flag better or worse who knows, many countries lost many men and women in war do you think about them. The flag design is really not the point of this referendum, personally I would have a kiwi on the flag background colour immaterial very simple and we have been called Kiwis for an age and more, are you going to tell me most of the world do not know who Kiwis are. Most politicians not just our Prime Minister like to leave a legacy of themselves to me this one is over the top, a simple do you want a flag change vote should have been enough, How many British people do you think should be at Gallipoli, do they not have ceremonies in UK for the people who have fallen in the wars from all allied countries. I think you should care how much it cost, who decided to have this referendum and why, Then think of the best flag to represent NZ. I must say I am Scottish born and proud of it, I have lived in New Zealand for over 50 years and love it, I have children and Grandchildren born in NZ , I will continue to do my best for NZ and am proud to be called a Scottish Kiwi.

  15. A great read. Wish I had the gift of writing so eloquently

  16. Well considered and thought out. I do though, disagree with saying “you are wrong” in your title. Might I suggest “Why I will be voting for a new flag” (which I will be doing too). It seems to me there is a lot of strong opinion about this – and many other things – but little tolerance for another person’s opinion being just that – another person’s opinion. An important part of being a democracy is the right to hold a different opinion.

    • Yeah… My blog is usually read by 20 people. If is known it would hit 15,000 I probably wouldn’t have been my usual arrogant self!

  17. I will admit that I actually really like the look of this flag. It is very NZ and I personally think its much nicer then the old one.
    I can also totally understand why people don’t want to change – there is the astronomical cost and the association with our war heroes and veterans. I don’t think changing the flag will change who we are as New Zealanders though – surely we aren’t that shallow and insecure in our own value?

    • Good point… Well made.

      • Good points but have you had a look at that flag flying backwards? Looks terrible! And the idea of flags in war was to identify your forces – you fought for your friends under a flag, held by a standard bearer. So it does give you identity. And the Union Jack represents ALL the people who make up the British Isles – probably the most diverse mixture – given that the majority of migration was westwards and most ended up in Albion in one time or another. And if you look at a globe almost directly opposite NZ. Both points of view to match the Southern Cross.

      • Ha! Hadn’t thought about looking at the back of it. I have probably come on a bit strong in the blog… I am not anti-Britain in any way (we travel up there often and live it) although I do believe the fern represents is better so it’s still function over form for mine but thanks for your comments.

  18. Some sound reasoning there Mike. Thanks for providing some interesting perspectives to add to my decision-making process.

  19. You said what i have been saying for months, yes and my GD died in Galipoli due 2 the cock up. Some say it looks like a logo, well take a look at items made in England and guess what the Union Jack is the logo on those items.

  20. I say the design that is proposed looks drab. It does not look smart and clean like a corporate logo, it look amateurish (perhaps because of the process which did not allow appropriate iterations and corrections needed for a decent design). Sorry, you covered lots of annoyances about the choice we are offered but not my core objection. If the question do you want a new flag had been asked first my guess is a small majority for, then ask which designer should work with our flag design team and this one was chosen probably could have worked up a good flag, but as it stands I think it will be a real shame if it wins.

  21. Wonderful blog, thanks for this. It definetly helps I for how I’ll vote differently in the 2nd referendum. Much appreciated, & refreshing.

  22. One point you seem to have missed. I like the current flag and identify with it in a way that I cannot find in the alternative. I will exercise my right to state how I feel. And just one point – those who struggle to identify our flag would likely have no more success identifying the vsdy majority of flags other than those commonly in the news

  23. Brilliant!!!!

  24. DON’T MESS WITH OUR NZ FLAG.
    Our NZ flag has over 100 years of tradition, which no money can buy. Tradition reminds us of our past and how we evolved from war-like tribes to creating a society aspiring to democracy and justice. The Union Jack on our flag is made of three crosses: St Andrew (Scotland); St George (England); St Patrick (Ireland). Historically there were other kingdoms as well in the British Isles, which meant that war was the normal way of life for our ancestors since the dawn of time. But the union of these kingdoms (though still fraught with old grievances) showed it was possible to unite and aspire towards a free, just society — without continual fear of bloodshed. Some wrongly claim that this has nothing to do with New Zealand. But that ignores our parliamentary system and rule of law, which we inherit from the UK. And this really has a lot to do with every country because the history of mankind has been a history of tribal warfare. The Union Jack is a reminder that it is possible for tribes and kingdoms to unite in the cause of aspiring to higher standards for humanity and discard old grievances. The crosses represent the effect Christianity had on our history and law. While not perfect (because religions are administered by fallible humans) the message from the Sermon on the Mount that we should love one another — even our enemies — provides a guide and is an antidote to war. All of this is incorporated in the Union Jack. This symbol reminds us that union is strength. No pretty new flag, without the symbolism and tradition, does this.

  25. Mike, what it comes down to is, we as New Zealanders have a vote. The vote is ours, we do what we believe what is right for us. It is our choice not anyone else but our own. I know you have your opinion, why it is wrong to vote for the “CURRENT “flag. We all have an opinion and the above is just that. Your opinion. So to end this I will now vote for the flag of MY choice and post it off tomorrow . Good night.

    • Yep. This is a blog. It’s a thing the Internet invented for people to write stuff… Sometimes opinion pieces. Good luck with your vote for the “CURRENT” flag. Good morning.

  26. I agree with all that you say—great to have it spelled out so clearly—thanks !!

  27. Its still an ugly flag, you can write what you like to argue for change, you may be right,but ugly is ugly and I do not like it.

  28. Excellent

  29. I think you’re talking shit! If you’re happy to overlook a shit spend to malt whiskey that says alot about you. Oh brother… some people are so weak.

    • Best comment yet! Try reading the article again. I can assure you that National did not subsidise single malt whiskey. Enjoy your vote. I hope the wording on the ballot paper is not too confusing for you.

    • Well put Connie, it really shows you only read the subject title and did not bother to read the article. It would be better to show some restraint and be objective and appreciate others point of view whether we agree to disagree.

  30. I love the NZ flag as it is but I quite like the ‘teatowel’ too. There are a few similar looking flags to ours in the world, it gets a little lost out there and no one knows if it’s Australia, Tuvalu or even England sometimes. When the first kiwi came down the chute in South Africa’s Comrades marathon last year wearing a silver fern shirt the TV commentator said “and here comes the New Zealand flag, I mean the All Black flag.” The silver fern is very recognisably NZ and I think incorporating it in the flag is a good idea.

  31. Sorry mate It’s. 0,03%

      • He is right, it’s either.0.0003 of the budget or 0.03%.

      • Out right now and phone battery at 3% (that bit I’m confident about – no maths needed). Will recheck in my return home. Humblest apologies if I’ve cocked it up. Have had a day of sarcastic replies and should definitely have checked first.

      • No worries, somehow you managed to get your cheese analogy numbers correct though…

      • It’s better to be lucky than good on the cheese analogy. I spent half an hour when writing it trying to work with double decker busses to no avail.

        The numbers have been edited now.

        Greg and Stefan, my apologies. Sometimes I wonder why I’m even allowed to vote.

  32. you can spin this debate either way as so many have (lets now add you to the list) but the design sucks and the process was shoddy so even those of us committed to a new flag will have trouble with the decision. what a shame to have wasted all that money.

  33. Good post but let me add more to it, as no matter what you write, you’ll still get through to people.

    1) $26m is nothing, like you said. In fact our Govt spends around $8m per hour. The $26m is part of a tiny “democracy” budget, which is ring-fenced for all elections and referenda. It was never going into the pot for “food for hungry children…” etc or whatever the naysayers like to say.

    2) Bet nobody is saying that the Canadian flag isn’t a symbol, commercial or personal, symbol for Canada. The Maple Leaf is a fantastic logo. Judging by the arguments against this flag, we’d never allow something similar to become our flag

    3) The fern is on all our war graves.

    4) It isn’t a John Key legacy project. Who was the Canadian PM when they changed to the Maple Leaf? Exactly! This is a lazy argument repeated over and over again by the usual JK haters.

    Cheers!

    • In regards to point no.4 – i doubt that other contries would remember who the pm was that changed nz’s flag. The country however would remember, so your point is invalid… Unless you are Canadian?

      • The post title starts “Why you are voting…”. It’s a combination of reasonings I had heard against a change back in December when I wrote it. I certainly couldn’t care less who mooted the point. I’m just rebutting other theories. Definitely not Canadian eh?!

    • 1. Its about the fact that we don’t need to spend that amount of money on top of the amount we spend each hour and the total amount of the budget. Its been a major thing of our government to push for balancing the books, technically this doesn’t help.

      2. The Canadian flag works, they produce a third of the worlds maple syrup, its a well known fact that Canada is known for the maple leaf. Using the same example with the fern doesn’t work, because the fern is simply a plant that grows here and all around the world, and we don’t hold a monopoly on it.

      3. Yes, the fern is on our war graves, however that falls in line with how us differentiate ourselves from the others in the commonwealth.

      4. It really is a legacy thing, and a lot of people don’t this whole idea just because of that.

      • All perfectly valid rebuttals. Thanks for not calling me an idiot.

      • And as for the fern being ‘just a plant’, it’s interesting to note that New Zealand has the most species of ferns) of any temperate country, and the majority are found ONLY in NZ). It’s one of the things that botanically minded visitors to NZ comment on, that we have so many ferns all over the place. Everywhere you go in the bush, there are ferns. Even in the open country, there are usually ferns around.

        Especially prominent are the tree ferns (the mamaku is the tallest tree fern in the world) and they are probably more dominant in NZ than anywhere else (but I haven’t been everywhere else to make sure). These include the silver fern which is actually fairly common and it is indeed unique to NZ so we do have a monopoly on the silver fern.

      • And as for the fern being ‘just a plant’, it’s interesting to note that New Zealand has the most species of ferns) of any temperate country, and the majority are found ONLY in NZ). It’s one of the things that botanically minded visitors to NZ comment on, that we have so many ferns all over the place. Everywhere you go in the bush, there are ferns. Even in the open country, there are usually ferns around.

        Especially prominent are the tree ferns (the mamaku is the tallest tree fern in the world) and they are probably more dominant in NZ than anywhere else (but I haven’t been everywhere else to make sure). These include the silver fern which is actually fairly common and it is indeed unique to NZ so we do have a monopoly on the silver fern.

  34. While this is a very well written article and has many vaild points, what if the reason you don’t want the flag changed is because simply you think the new flag is ugly?. Some people don’t actually have a policately charged reason, or object to the money being spent or have realitives who fought under the flag etc. I wouldn’t buy a pair of jeans if I didn’t like the colour or style. You could argue that you had the chance to choose a new one and yes we did, but what if the new one you liked wasn’t chosen?. At the end of the day people have a choice and I also feel priviledged to be a part of it but simply put, I don’t like the new flag and if it ends up being changed, at least I know I still had my say.

    • I have seen this or similar comments from several readers. For mine it’s a case of function over form but if the flag is kept I have a feeling that it will be voters such as yourself that will be the difference. Those in favour of a change may look back and wish the process was different when this all comes out in the wash.

    • No where have you mentioned the smokescreen to the TPPA. Another atgument circulating…While we argue about a flag what’s really going g on? And are you assuming we agreed to the way government spends money as I for one didn’t think either the Americas Cup or referendum was well spent funds at all.

      • I haven’t mentioned the Flying Spaghetti Monster either… Because this is a post about the flag. Go back and read the post… You’ve just said I am assuming the exact opposite of what was written.

  35. Love it. Straight on point!

  36. Every one will vote how they think fit.. We don’t have to hear everyones elses reasons.

    • And yet you still took the time to not just read, but comment also. Thanks! Since your time is clearly not at a premium, may I suggest you watch something on TV that you’ll find offensive and write a letter of complaint.

  37. Too long didnt read. But that title though….

  38. or that 26 million would represent 6% of DOC’s funding and contribute to protecting a third of the country.

    • … Or it could subsidise purchases of single malt whiskey. We all have our preferences.

    • Lets be fair… Majority of NZders wouldnt bat an eye lid if the $26 mill was spent on a yacht race or to send sheep to Saudi Arabia. And thats probably where it would be spent. You cant say it wouldnt.

      But as it stands the $26 million was taken from a fund that is specifically used for referenda and elections. Its always there incase we have an emergency referendum.

      • You’re the second person to mention that and I had no idea there was such a fund or I certainly would have mentioned it. I’ll investigate further and report back on my whiskey subsidy idea. Untapped slush funds could be worth looking into!

  39. after this i just ticked for old flag thanks for sounding patroning, i just dont like the new one its ugly does nothing for me

  40. As a Pom, with no vested interest one way or the other in this, I just wanted to say I thought this was a really well written piece. Whether people agree or not I think you have articulated your arguments really well, something that can’t be said about 99.9% of the bilge on the Internet.

  41. The new flag is too ugly

  42. Does anyone else think the Kyle Lockwood “Black, White & Blue” design is ugly?

    Im a graphic designer and not too unfamiliar of given a difficult design brief which I assume for Lockwood went a bit like this… “mix sport with locality and that’s our flag”.

    I prefer the Andrew Fyfe design “Koru”. I am Maori so my opinion may seem biased but wouldn’t this flag design best represent New Zealand? At our international airports, and too our national carrier Air New Zealand has been promoting the koru and our culture for many decades, well maybe not in Wellington’s Internatiomal Airport who have decided to promote a fictional Hollywod villain. The koru is a taonga but a treasure that can be shared with all New Zealanders. Aesthetically the koru follows the Golden ratio which is said to be identified with beauty and found in nature as the frong of a fern, or the spiral of a consh shell. I even like the simplicity and boldness of white on black.

    • It seems a good majority agree with you. For me it’s a case of voting function over form but I’m in the minority for sure.

      • 6 years and I am making a come back. Did you know that the New Zealand flag bares a strong resemblance to… the New South Wales flag? Why is this important? Before New Zealand was considered a nation in the eyes of the world it was briefly claimed as part of NSW… long before the current New Zealand flag was created.

  43. Great rebuttals to all of the squeaky wheels out there. Looking forward to casting my vote and hoping that the silent majority holds out on the day 😉

  44. There’s a big difference between corporate branding and national flags, and for some good reasons. A corporate identity is designed to reflect what the company is selling – stability or strength or cutting edge technologies or what-have-you. A national flag represents less obviously profit-motivated things. New Zealand’s current flag has two elements, a southern cross to give location and a British flag to give some context and lineage.

    That’s my major issue with the Silver Fern. It has been used so widely on such a range of things that it has become a sort of “discredited” focal point. It means… generic turn of the millennium New Zealand-ness? Which isn’t a very powerful image to rally around in my opinion. Given the chance to define our country by something new and forward looking, instead we borrow from the recent past to say with one voice “Ehh, I guess this is New Zealand-y, right?” We had a chance to create something new, and instead we phoned it in.

    Given that we’re choosing a new flag to be flown for a century hence, thinking about what we think represents us *now* shouldn’t have been the priority. What do we want to represent us in 50 years time? How do we want our nation to grow and change, and what do we want to represent that change? To me, the Silver Fern doesn’t represent that. It doesn’t represent anything really. It doesn’t have the same importance to the increasingly large immigrant population who have chosen to make New Zealand their home, it doesn’t represent the range and complexity of our local populations, the only thing it really represents is our sports teams, weet bix, tea-towels, and such. All important things, but how much should any of that matter half a century from now? When dairy prices drop for good, what will New Zealand provide which pushes us back onto the world’s stage? Because this flag answers that question with “Cling desperately to the hope that dairy prices will recover.”

    The only option which made it into the referendum which seemed to have any thought put into it in this direction was Red Peak, and it had the problem of being as boring as a very boring thing.

    Much has been made of the Canadian flag redesign, which also ended up with a leaf. The better one to emulate in my opinion would be South Africa, whose redesign resulted in a flag which incorporates multiple sources to create a flag grounded in many aspects of their storied past. It’s a flag which means something about where they’ve come from, but can still become the signifier for whichever future you hope for.

    I’ll happily vote to change the flag. But since the option for the change represents a version of New Zealand that I’d be happy to leave behind, I’m not voting for this one.

    • Thanks for your clearly well thought out reply. For mine, the fern is a stronger symbol that I think you’re giving it credit for. But then I’m a sports fan so maybe I can relate to it more than some others. The fern was on the ABs jersey 100 or so years ago (can’t fact check as on the road right now) so I think it’s more than turn of millennium. Anyways… I truly appreciate some good points and non-threatening comments coming from the keep the flaggers. Thanks again… You’re restoring a bit of faith in those on your side of the debate!

      • Hi, thought I’d add my two cents (don’t we all love that, another person with an opinion, haha!). I appreciate what Martin had to say, and for this reason. I am not sporty, and have come from an intergenerational lack of interest in national sport of most any kind. There is no animosity attached, and I from time to time think sitting on the side lines with drinks/snacks and friends looks like a great time. I, however, cannot convince myself to be interested in sport for sports sake alone. For that reason, I align myself with what Martin had to say because I feel the flag should be inclusive of our collective selves. No, that doesn’t mean we need to fit a hundred things on a new flag, and how corporate would a hobbit holding a weta really be anyway 😉 I don’t think we’ve found the design yet….and I am one of the growing number, with the mantra “Don’t vote for the new flag just because it’s the only option because you want change and you feel there is no other choice”. At this point, arguing about the money already spent is pointless, and smoke and mirrors. The real focus should be, is this a fair representation of who we ALL are, and will be into the future (let’s face it, a country that changes it’s flag in an ill considered fashion and potentially opens itself up to more change down the track, isn’t considered the most stable probably), and more to the point, encapsulates our history, our future, and our identity NOT OUR CORPORATE POTENTIAL. I think it is safe to assume the main body of society would agree we are not a corporate product, but a nation of diverse human beings whose flag should represent who we are now, in the past, and in our future, not simply what we make or ‘do’ – that’s what ‘business’ is for….sorry for the rant, no offense intended. BTW, whisky..well, I might be persuaded to give it a go!!

      • Thanks Tracy. Start with a nice Ardbeg 10 year old and experiment from there. You won’t be disappointed. I’m afraid subsidisation is unlikely although now I’m getting some hits on this blog I may begin a campaign!

    • While i respect your view Martin I too think you have sold OUR silver Fern short. It is a New Zealand symbol. The Union Jack while has its ties to some NZders it doesnt to all NZders. The fern represents all NZders.If a visitor to Italy was to wear a silver fern design on their shirt then Id instantly think they are either from NZ or have been there. Even if they didnt look like the stereotypical NZder. Id see the fern and automatically think of NZ. Now that is what I call a recognisable logo.

      I personally didnt like Red Peak and think the S African flag is just as boring but thats a personal opinion, much like yours 🙂

  45. Where is the referendum for the TPPA, I’d much rather being voting on this country’s future Tham a symbol of it…

  46. Great article, enjoyed and agree with your commentary, I hope you don’t mind it re-posted. I am humored by the John Key haters and connect this with a potentially new, New Zealand flag. turning a symbolic identity to a commercial/personal political debate has made this an enjoyable national debate. What is not so pleasant is the bullying that goes on to try an influence a different perspective. Now with rumors the RSA (some) spending $20 million to try and get their members not to vote on flag change, they must be rolling in money and not need anymore donations from the poppies sold annually from all new Zealanders and guests.

  47. OK, Let’s vote in an ugly flag which will represent us and has little meaning in fact. It’s a favourite choice for the desperate who feel we need a corporate logo to represent us. I don’t give a rat’s what the rest of the world think. It’s what it represents to New Zealanders. This is the purpose of a flag for a nation. Go print yourself a Tee shirt if you’re having an identity crisis.

  48. The silver fern on this articles flag is silver but its Actually white on the one we are voting on, so that to me is misrepresenting for a start.

  49. A great read and so much I agree on – all but one thing – the expression POHM – the correct spelling – means Prisoners Of Her Majesty – and does NOT relate to any Brits that came to live in New Zealand, they volunteered to come – to help colonise the country. Otherwise I’m all for the change in the flag, the current one is bold and US totally. The old one was just a generic flag that all the colonies had, the blue, with the Union Jack in the left corner and to individualise, the Southern Cross.

  50. The ‘our soldiers fought for the flag’ argument baffles me! Men and women signed up for a variety of reasons, but one common thread to protect our freedom. As in, the freedom to make choices. For example, the freedom to change the flag if we decide it’s appropriate. If it hadn’t been for their efforts we could well have lost the right to vote on anything at all.

    • Yeah – I’ve been disappointed by the RSA campaign for this exact reason. Show me someone fighting purely for the flag and I’ll show you someone looking for a fight for any (or no) reason at all.

  51. Mike, you have eloquently debunked many of the popular “keep the current flag” arguments, except one. I just don’t like the proposed new flag. I want to feel pride when I see my country’s flag flying and the Lockwood design just doesn’t do that for me. Obviously many people didn’t agree with me when creating the shortlist (where we were steered towards a silver fern whether we liked it or not) or in the first referendum, and I expect many won’t agree with me now. But I won’t vote for change just for the sake of change, or because the proposed design is the one I disliked less than the others. Our flag should mean more to me than that.

    • Your point is far more eloquently put than mine. Those with your thoughts seem likely to make the difference and keep the flag. This was not a point that was really mooted when I wrote the blog last December which is why it’s not mentioned. My only retort is that I’m voting function over form. I doubt we’ll see another chance for change in my lifetime.

  52. Like most people I didnt see a reason to change.
    But i also couldnt believe it when they proposed the change Andrew Meurtens for a “no name” Dan Carter.
    My point is, we dont always recognise something better till after it happens, change is inevitable and now i see the new proposal I like it

  53. When I think of our sad NZ record with child deaths from abuse and the number of placards at the entry to every town that say “Violence is not OK” my problem with the new flag is the colours. ‘Black ‘n blue’ symbolise for me, what is shameful about our country and I would never have chosen to put them on our flag.

    • Sure, but to me they mean Ponsonby Rugby or the black singlet and blue Pacific. How about we change the colour of the signs? Or better yet, stop beating our families up? I’m a simple person with simple solutions.

    • That’s a bit of a stretch Sandra! you could say the same about Red, Yellow, Green Pink, Brown, you of course aren’t wrong about our countries abuse rates but that has nothing to do with a flag design.

  54. I say that you should vote for what you want, and the divisive nature of this debate has been fueled by Government led campaign trying to coerce people, just as you are doing Mike. If people are not convinced yet they will only represent a very low percentage of people. The very first comment I read above was from someone who claims they were changing their vote now that they have read your article. I am extremely skeptical about that. Vote for what you want and let others vote for what they want and then the majority will get what they want. That of course will be disappointing for you.

    • I absolutely encourage people to vote for what they want. Just as I encourage everyone to discuss, debate and perhaps coerce.
      I was stunned and a little pleased that someone was claiming that my 2c worth had an influence on their decision.
      What I don’t believe is that the divisive nature of the debate is fuelled by a divisive campaign by anyone. The nastiness is going to be there for any subject that people are passionate about but you’ll have seen in the comments above that that is beyond some… It’s human nature.
      I fear you’re right that I’m gonna be disappointed… But I’m pleased I’ve exercised my right to blog freely and let others vote for what they want. I spent the last four years in PNG and have seen what happens when people literally don’t get to vote for what they want… I think it’s unfair to suggest that I’m doing otherwise.

  55. Well written Mike, personally I think we need to become a republic first, then change it. p.s I think it looks damn fine!

    • Thanks! I’m not sure missing the opportunity to replace the Union Jack on our flag will help the chances of getting that referendum anytime soon but (just thinking out loud) that would force a change? Then… (Really should stop thinking out loud) the process could be tweaked and we’d possibly get the votes lost due to what many believe to be poor process or poor design. I like where you’re heading with this!

  56. I think the flag is something that effects all of New Zealand people, and when this is the cast the process under which it is handled becomes the most important thing(not the outcome) you are right money, it’s nothing, the design, objective, and you are always going to get people focussing on these elements in a situation like this. It’s quite clear there has been an amount of manipulation in regards to the process, and for a lot of people like yourself, you do not care about this because it favours you. And that is fine, you have said your piece and openly shown your lack of concern for a fair and just process that might lead to more accepted idea and a much much better designed flag, if the process had been much different we could have had interesting talks about what the flag would look like and who would design it. Instead we have a divided people on the subject and have a very limited choice of flag. It’s quite sad that a seemly intelligent chap like your self cannot see reason in this and are leading a group of like mined people, who have no understanding of process over outcome. Outcome does not become the focus of opinion when the process is right, instead it leads to intelligent discussion and a united cause. Sleep well my friend and I’ll say a pray for you……

    • “Leading a group of like minded people”?
      I’m a keyboard warrior… Like most on here. I write about sports mainly and usually get 20 views per post… Not 10.000 a day.
      I’m keen to hear about what was unjust or manipulated throughout the process though if you could elaborate as whilst it’s been made very clear here that the process was flawed, I think this is the first time that injustice or manipulation has been mentioned.
      I would expect a divided people on the subject or I would have been genuinely upset about the funds spent also!
      I really don’t think most people are doing anything more than discussing this openly, with the obvious exception of a few of the comments above, but I think I’d expect a similar percentage of personal or completely off-the-wall remarks on any similarly emotive topic. I thought it would be unfair to post only some comments so figured it best to post all.

      • Yea you are talking up and mediating a process that happened in reverse, did we have a vote first of all to find out if we indeed wanted a change, if this was the case then our divided option might hold some worth. JK wearing the flag on his TPPA coverage as a badge, come on how smart are you, because you seem it. If I had the power to change something about your life, would you prefer I asked some questions first?

      • Surely the current process takes the place of what would have been a third (but first) referendum? Those against will vote against and (as has been shown clearly above) those for but who don’t like the process will also vote against.
        I must admit that I didn’t see Key wearing the badge on the TPPA coverage (I spent a lot of time out of NZ) and, if he did, I’d suggest that was a pretty poor decision. He’s entitled (as are you and I) to give his opinion on the subject but to be promoting it in the international arena would be well off.
        I assure you I’m not mediating this. Once I realised this was getting a few hits, I enabled comments and have posted everything except the worst of the personal stuff commented (which is why it’s not completely open season). I’m learning this as I go and will almost certainly revert to talking shyte about sports in this blog post now that I’m back in NZ for good. I’m looking forward to not feeling like I have to do this.

      • Come on Mike, if you don’t think you are a leader but you have a blog that sends messages out into the world then you don’t deserve the liberty of one, you are leader and a media device, how old are you?

      • Read my other blog posts then get back to me about the leader thing. My previous highest visitors was 130 for a Rugby World Cup preview. If I was a leader, Steven Donald would never have been selected for the RWC final and we may have all been a little worse off for that although it pins me to admit it.

      • See this is your problem, all leaders don’t start with thousands of follows, it’s a process, if you stand up and speak out, you are displaying the qualities of a leader, just because you don’t have followers doesn’t mean you aren’t. And now you do!!
        In my mind process is the most important thing, if you have a great process you will have a great outcome, even if it’s wrong, and most often it will be, but it won’t matter you will earn and try again.
        Please rethink your thoughts and incorporate not just the people who it favours because by the sounds of it you wouldn’t really care how you get your own way.
        Yea the third referendum should have been the first is that what you mean? cause I agree with you on that!

      • … and with that Godwin’s Law takes effect on Jasons’ next post (one of four comments received overnight from him)! I’m done with this one I’m afraid.

  57. …and to add to the polictical history….Labour had the policy of reviewing and changing the NZ flag in 2014 (http://yournz.org/2015/06/30/labour-still-campaigning-against-its-own-flag-policy/).
    When the flag was first decided on, New Zealander’s didn’t get a say.

    • Seems that a lot of people are for a change but against the process or design. Of all the comments received so far there have been (I’ll admit surprisingly few) folks that have made this political.

  58. Good read, I too will vote for change, Otherwise it will be 26 million dollars wasted.

  59. Yep.. The money’s been spent.. No point crying over spilt milk. I get your point there.
    And yep… Governments will always choose to spend money in ways that not all its citizens agree with.
    I will vote for one of the flags- which one is irrelevant..
    What IS important, is that people remember how THIS government chose to spend $26 mill … When the next general election comes round.
    Kids don’t have food & safe homes…
    People can’t access basic health care when they need it…
    I wont forget the priority this government places on frivolous cosmetic ‘legacies’- regardless of what our flag looks like.

    • Hi Margaret… it does seem that you are crying over spilt milk in your last sentence. A couple of folks here have suggested that the funds came out of some sort of “referendum slush fund”. I’ll see if I can find reliable info on this today and no doubt use it on another similar comment when it is inevitably posted. Your choice flag is incredibly relevant – particularly to this conversation – as is everyones.

  60. Thanks for your thoughts, well written and well argued. I agree with some of your points (particularly the relatively small amount of money). However I have an alternative perspective on what the Silver Fern means to some New Zealanders, and therefore why it is not appropriate on the flag which I feel is lacking from the general debate about the flag. Check out my thoughts here: http://gingermusings.wordpress.com/

    • Thanks.

      You mention in your post that your mate said “It is time for a change and I hope all you plonkers that wanted a change but did not get exactly what you wanted will still vote for change and not throw your toys”.

      I wouldn’t call it throwing toys at all… In fact it seems from many of the comments above that a large number of original change proponents will now vote to keep the flag.

  61. Thanks for the clear thinking Mike, in a discussion yesterday, it was pointed out to me that of the $26M, $18M is for the postage, and returns directly to the Govt.

    This chance to vote, is a one off in my opinion, after all the heated discussion, no other politician will be brave enough to broach the subject, or worse will simply change the flag without any public input.

    A good chance to unite ourselves behind ‘our’ flag, my vote is in for the new flag.

    • Thanks Dave. Key came out and said something about most of the money going to NZ Post somewhere recently although I can’t remember where I saw or heard it.
      I think you’re right that this is a one off but (in the seemingly unlikely event of a change) I fear from some of the comments here that we won’t be uniting!

  62. I think a much better argument could be presented, but good on you for putting in the time & effort.
    I’m not a huge fan of the ‘new’ design, but I’m embarrassed by the old design.
    I’ve sailed half way around the world in an environment where both tradition and maritime law require the displaying of flags. I have never once hoisted our traditional NZ flag. I have, however, regularly flown the silver fern (black flag). I have also noticed that this is more the norm on Kiwi vessels abroad than the traditional flag. This practice is usually illegal and certainly immoral. It is however, the norm, because like me, my sailing colleagues around the world are proud to be Kiwi and therefore fly the ‘Kiwi’ flag.

    If someone says “I am voting for the old flag because I like it more than the new design”, then good on you, happy voting.
    Almost every other argument is simply nonsensical and in my limited view usually misinformed.
    I hope we get another crack at this when we separate from the queen, and I hope we can secure the black flag with the silver fern at the time.

    1. The money does seem like a lot, but it is an investment into something that will last centuries. I agree with the commenter (detractor) who said that it is actually an under-invested rush job… a corporate would spend a lot more of its available funding on getting this right. Finally, the money is spent, past tense, voting against it on this basis changes nothing… like refusing to eat the apple because it was too expensive and cost too much. Now the waste is ensured.

    2. The logo / beach towel / handkerchief / bandanna effect
    OK, there are two choices, just vote for the flag you like the most.
    …but don’t let some smart marketing fool you into believing and touting the rhetoric.
    Here’s some beach towels: https://goo.gl/DVpwIZ – see anything that looks like the new design?

    3. Nobody has ever fought and died for a flag. The fought and died for a country, for ideals, for democracy and freedom. They fought and died so that we would have a democratic process that allows us to vote for things like… our national flag.

    4. John Key. It just makes no sense to vote against something because you don’t like someone involved in it. Really? Take the rations from Hitler and give it to the Jews in your basement… don’t just refuse to take the food… it’s just not at all smart.

    5. The foregone conclusion. Maybe it is… maybe it isn’t. The voting numbers still tell a story… To vote against change because you want to be on the winning side is just silly.

    I know it sounds antagonistic, but I can’t help but suggest that if voting was somehow weighted according to IQ, we would see a dramatically different result.
    …the same would be true of the aforementioned asset sales referendum.

    Parting thought… If I believed that the new design would win at the cost of having a better flag (Black Flag / Silver Fern) in 10 years, I would vote against immediate change in favor of better change later.

    It seems we are destined to stay with the Australian British NZ flag for now, so I will vote for the new flag as another voice in the chorus calling for change in the future.

    JQS

    • Thanks for your input. I too am resigned to defeat but optimistic of a silent majority (only less optimistic than before).

    • I love this particular comment!:
      I know it sounds antagonistic, but I can’t help but suggest that if voting was somehow weighted according to IQ, we would see a dramatically different result.…the same would be true of the aforementioned asset sales referendum.

      Oh, how often I have thought that myself. I’ve also wondered what the outcome would have been if the cost had been a couple of thousand? Would it have drastically changed or would the majority still find another complaint to make.

      I love the new flag – I love the ‘kiwiness’ of it and I will be flying that regardless of the outcome.

  63. Not sure the 34,072 ‘Poms’ that also died at Gallipoli would agree with some of your sentiments.

  64. Well said. I am astonished how inward thinking some New Zealanders are. Here is a chance to have an identifiable symbol flying proud and bright. Perhaps they have never moved away from their shores to get a wider picture of the how confusing the current flag is. New Zealand is strong enough, prosperous enough, developed enough, unique enough, and independent enough to fly it’s own colours without referring to the United Kingdom. We are still in the Commonwealth, we still have Queen Elizabeth II; let’s be like Canada – belonging to the Commonwealth but proud of its own identifiable flag. Our respected All Blacks who are commenting are quite right – we revere them, let’s listen to them.

  65. Thanks for your worthless opinion , mr WhatsHisFace … Now , do you have a more frivolous way to spend your time ?

  66. The money part will not be a problem as we are all going to have to pay to get anything the has the original flag on it changed ie: drivers liscence passport etc but i will be voting to stay with what we have as I wish to remain in the commonwealth

    • We can still remain in the Commonwealth with a change of flag… That’s perhaps a debate for another day. Canada, PNG and a host of other nations have changed flags but remain in the Commonwealth.

    • You will NOT be leaving the Commonwealth just by changing the flag.

  67. You describe yourself as centre right while I’m centre left, yet I agree with everything you’ve written about the flag debate.

  68. Really not sure which way to vote, but I do know this for absolute sure. when I hear kiwis or aussies bang on about incompetence and even cowardice by brits at Gallipoli I really start to wonder what makes them betray their countrymen’s sacrifice. Do they not realise that thousands of Brits died there too – if there aren’t Brit tourists at Gallipoli then perhaps that is because it doesn’t have the same historic significance. Brit losses were massive, as they were for everybody else.

    When it comes to poor military decisions, perhaps kiwis should reflect on Freyberg ignoring intelligence that clearly stated Crete was to be taken by an air invasion – and yet he kept waiting for the Germans to come in boats they didn’t have while their paratroopers took the airfields. if we had held Crete, we could have dealt many deadly blows at Hitler’s oil supplies in Romania. That mistake cost more lives than Gallipoli did I am pretty sure, but to be honest I am not counting because mistakes happen in war, and they are tragic – the point being that kiwis are no more immune to committing military folly than anybody else and the suggestion that kiwi lives were worth less than Brit lives to commanders is at best insulting to their memory.

    So perhaps as a grateful British NZer I will vote to keep the Union flag to honour Sir Keith Park…….

    • Sure. I agree we are no more immune than others but it wasn’t relevant to the point I was trying to make. What I was trying to do was make an effort to counterpoint the “died for the flag” theory and I guess I thought the disaster at Gallipoli was relevant. I’ll be honest, I know nothing of what you’ve mentioned about Crete but will be reading up tonight. Thanks for your comments… There’s always more to learn and I’ll be doing so.

  69. So True < Yeah right your balanced words speak nothing except I'm watching everything that's going on and the Fly trap will catch all of you …..
    The New Flag doesn't even have a Place its not even a Silver Fern DH

  70. the most common thing I read as to why have a flag change is to bring nz into the future and stop living in the past…. well if thats the case get rid of the historical trusts too as that is holding onto our history and no longer reperesents nz. You cant have it both ways where you move forward but stay still

  71. Its awesome to be able to accept that it is a legacy ploy or it wasn’t really that expensive to run a referendum or that people didn’t particularly ask for a change nor did the country get to vote on what flags were to be the final candidates from a selection of many. It does not mean its right though.

  72. Great blog. It does make me a bit sad to see that there are so many people out there that won’t even put any thought into why they we voting against change, sigh…

  73. To be honest people can vote for what they want to vote for, but there is always going to have a following of people that go with what is popular with media and those that just disapprove of anything and everything that is popular in media. The point of matter is was there anything wrong with the flag before, (e.g so called john keys comment that it is to much the same as the australian or other common wealth flags, well no shit its because we are in a commonwealth not a fully independant country). For me the way it was introduced and slammed in New Zealand affected my judgement at first as it was like stuff you new zealand from john key to not even take into account what the majority of new zealand thought to begin with, but then again it does resemble some prominent traits of new zealand. However your opinion that people didnt fought for the flag is very flawed people fought for the commonwealth and the commonwealth was represented by the flag and the change to the flag takes the idea that we are no longer in service to the queen from the union jack removal, so does this mean we are removing ourselfs more from the commonwealth or just trying to be the odd one out in the commonwealth. Either way the lack of concern for people of new zealand is majorly concerning, as the flag even if the voting goes towards keeping original flag will end up being pushed to the side for the greater of new zealand in accordance to what john key thinks. Im not trying to say everything he does is wrong, more just the attitude of complying to partnerships e.g treaty or even just the general concensus of new zealand. Cause it might be just the flag now but what other major changes is he willing to make as the jury of new zealand without new zealand wanting any change to happen.

  74. Great article ! I live in Argentina, and a newzealander friend of mine posted your article on his Facebook. I couldn’t agree more with your analysis on why voting for a change. Your arguments are solid, well developed. And I also think that, as you elloquently point out, in the complicated times we are living this debate is a privllege, and it shows most kiwis don’t realize how lucky they are.

  75. I read your article just so I could give you a piece of my mind on the subject, I have always been against the change of flag since it started, heck I told every single person I’ve had this conversation with how stupid it is to change the flag, I’ve even completed my vote to keep the current flag, funny thing is though, after reading your article I’ve started questioning WHY? WHY was I so against the flag change, what reasons did I have to be against it? Your reasons for a change were really on point that my pathetic excuses to keep the flag were (well its exactly how i said it) PATHETIC. I can’t change my vote now but I hope it would somehow change the minds of other current flag supporters like me out there. Great article.

    • Wow – thanks for the comments. You’ll have noted from previous comments that few have changed their views either way and I suspect many had no intention of any sort of open-mindedness but (even though it’s a little late for you) it’s nice to get some positive feedback. Thanks again.

  76. My response to the comments clogging up my Facebook wall seems equally valid here.

    My two cents on the flag, since posts about it are getting spammed across my page continually. Yes, the flag needs to change. The problem is, if we go for the horrible option we have been given courtesy of a flawed process involving not one flag expert, that’s it. We’re stuck with it. I do not want a corporate logo for a flag. Far better to realise that the entire shambles was a bit of a waste of time and money, but it did at least get the discussion around change going. Then we can move towards getting a flag designed by someone who has a clue. Voting for the Lockwood travesty just because it doesn’t have a Union Jack on it is a horrible and potentially permanent choice.

  77. I will be voting against the flag change for the following reasons.
    – The process was rubbish, where were the professional designers to manage this? If we were to change the National Anthem would we all write our own and compose our own music as armatures and submit them.
    – I think the flag looks like a concept, not a finished solution.
    – You can’t fly the flag from both directions like a good flag design.
    – The referendum process should have been done online and if a certain amount of votes are pro change then a real referendum could take place which will be binding.
    – 26 million could have been spent on anything else and it would have been better than spending 26 million knowing that the flag won’t get voted in.
    – IF, the process was done correctly then $26m for a new flag is worth while.
    …………………………………………………………………………….
    I personally want a new flag, however this was a total cock up and unfortunately means that it is unlikely we will get a new flag. That will be John Keys legacy. This is such a shame as we could have had a nice new flag, if this flag were to be approved we will never get the opportunity for a better flag in the future.

  78. I say:

    I get your arguments, but it doesn’t stop this alternative being butt ugly. It looks like a beach towel that some plastic-filled, middle-aged barbie from Remuera designed as a kiwiana, make-some-pocket-money scheme. It represents nothing of NZ and has become a symbol of a failed process run by a bunch of rich white men.

    I would like to see a new flag. Just not that new flag. It’s just plain ugly. The current NZ flag looks like a work of art next to it.

  79. One problem that everyone seems to have overlooked is that the $26 million will only be the start of the costs incurred if we vote to change our flag. All the official stationery, changing flags and signage on public buildings, changing the badges on military uniforms, and much much more.

    Changing the flag would be all very well in a boom economy when there is money to spare in the public purse, but now? Seriously? When people are losing their jobs or their farms, don’t have a decent roof over their heads or are going to school hungry? Vote no to further unnecessary expenditure – we can always go through this exercise again when the country actually has money to burn.

  80. OMG it’s only a flag for god sakes! if the flag is changed tomorrow NZ’ers will celebrate then carry on with their normal lives… if the flag isn’t changed NZ’ers will carry on with their normal lives. Just like the rugby world cup, we won, we celebrated, we carried on living. It is the local people that make this country unique not the flag. I am a proud NZ citizen, proud of where I come from, proud of who I am. Don’t need any flag to remind me of that. People keep saying ‘time for change’ or ‘change for a better future’. I completely agree with that but a flag change is only …’A FLAG CHANGE’ it’s just going to ‘look different’. (cant believe I just wasted a minute of my time on this flag debate). Not voting, don’t care about current or new flag but still proud of my lil country Aotearoa New Zealand

  81. Change the flag I say….. Thanks Mike a great read….This Country is so backward and hates change, Go for it NZ and be proud of our change, it’s not all about John Key onwards and upwards as one.

  82. Hi Mike, Thanks for your interesting ‘blog”; I’ve been in the design biz for 30+ years and here’s my 5 reasons for keeping our current flag:
    1. John Key’s cabinent appointed the Flag Consideration Panel – with no or professional designers or vexillologists (flag designers) on board. They totally ignored the advice from the Design Institute (DINZ) and ‘fell into line’ with the jingoistic, logo-driven, marketing pressure from the Beehive.
    2. From the outset the PM overtly ‘told the world’ his preference in several very inappropriate forums. In doing so, he has attempted to subvert the ‘so-called’ democratic process by appealing to his gullible followers. We all now know this expensive process has been politically interfered with and, as a consequence, is flawed. In essence, we are not oblivious to the manipulative Crosby-Dexter games out here in the ‘community wilderness’.
    3. We predictably got a flawed result – frankly the design is a ‘crock’ – we can and will do better, and I don’t envisage that being too far away either time-wise, despite the opposing comments of our PM.
    4. I certainly wanted a flag change and even submitted a design which received wide appeal. It very understandably didn’t make the cut because it featured a very simple symbolic kiwi encapsulated in a koru; and any designs with a depiction of our national bird were eliminated – a later decree by the Pm”s ‘cheerleader’ panel. Notwithstanding, I have subsequently n’ sadly changed my mind about wanting a change, principally after the shenanigans exercised by a Prime Minister who continues to demonstrate that hasn’t a clue about good flag design or cultural integrity.
    5.Let’s ‘flag’ this inadequate pastishe design and try again when we become a republic without political interference. Mai Chen got it right when she noted that we should wait for this appropriate constitutional occasion rather than go along with the current PM’s corporate-sports-driven, vanity project.

    • Thanks for your input. I’m pretty sure now that this design won’t be getting the go ahead and I really hope you’re right about another chance (at least in my lifetime).

  83. I want to read every post but my eyes won’t stay open, love your replies Mike!

    I intend on voting!

  84. Thanks for the great article!
    I’m open to the idea of a new flag. Sadly I’m not old enough to vote. I agree with all your points, though I do wish the design was better.

  85. This is exactly what I have been thinking! Well said. And I like ur respect for all opinions
    I do think the design commitee was flawed but it will still be one of the coolest flags

  86. Good on ya mate. Couldn’t have said it better myself. I have voted for change
    I have had pretty much this exact conversation with someone on the other side of the fence.
    Very stubborn people who don’t like to listen
    Usually just got the same old answers

  87. I agree with you, nothing wrong with change, just not this one. Rubbish design, rubbish process. Get us a process that gets us a good flag and I’ll vote for that. Otherwise we’re voting for change for the sake of it and we get a stink flag – no second chance. If we vote ‘no’ now, there’ll be another shot at it in a few years and hopefully with the benefit of some lessons learned.

  88. My big issue is that the change should mean something historically. We changed it when X happened. There is no X, it doesn’t mark a thing.

    Then you get the Kiwis who decamped to other countries decades ago getting to vote. Birthright shouldn’t be enough, you should be an active member of our nation. Same goes for the flag designers.

  89. Great read Mike, I was one who wanted to keep our flag but have realised that the only real change is the union jack for OUR fern I have just visited the amazing ANZAC centre at Albany in Western Australia and those who know will be aware of how important this is. I saw both the NZ & Aussie flags flying together & thought would a new NZ one be a dis-service to our fallen soldiers? No, they fought for our freedom not the flag. In fact I now accept most would be proud to see the fern up there. It is only the un educated who could possibly want to compare our fern to a feather!

  90. I’m voting to keep the old flag because I don’t like the new flag. It’s that simple.

  91. If New Zealanders aren’t voting because they think:
    -The alternative flag looks like a corporate logo.
    -My relative fought/died for that flag
    … then I have serious doubts for this country. It goes to show the typical mentality of people in this country.
    “It’s a foregone conclusion. The flag will not change” also shows the classic close-mindedness of this country which will not enable us to survive.
    The world is constantly changing around us NZ – when will you wake up?!

    NZ needs to change its branding. We are a small country. Most people overseas don’t know where NZ is on the map. They know us for Lord of the Rings and Sport. The proposed new flag represents our sporting achievements clearly with black – the national colour for sports teams and the silver fern – a neutral symbol and native plant.
    I hope this article opened at least some minds.

  92. I say the non-binding referendums were a waste of money too.
    I say $30 million + is a hell of a lot of money, regardless of the percentile expense, and would be put to better use in any number of ways.
    I say that so long as we are under monarchical rule, there should be the Union Jack on our flag. The only good reason to change the flag would be if we became a republic, case closed.

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